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Why not open it up?

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Pat Kotnour

Frequent Poster
Messages
174
Location
Hastings, MN
Company
Attach-EZ, Inc
After just retuning from the WCAF show I have decided to make a suggestion. I speak to many framers everyday and the one thing I hear often is that they don't know much about PPFA, which should not be. Many don't even know that this forum exists because they must be a member to have full access. All you have to do is look at the recent visitors list here and it is pretty clear why they are not as informed as they might be. Today's recent visitors list has about 95% CPF's and MCPF's on it and very few framers coming into this forum to get information or to ask questions. It can be very intimidating to a new framer to come here and only find framers who already have so much knowledge and skills. I often hear that they are afraid to ask a question for fear of being laughed at or berated for asking something that may be considered dumb by those in the know. My suggestion is to open this forum up to everyone. How can a new framer find out what PPFA is all about if the can't even come here to explore and find out what they don't know about PPFA unless they are a member? By making this forum closed it is preventing many who might become a member from getting the information they need and suggests that they may not be welcome.

All of you MCPF's and CPF's should be very proud of your accomplishments, but when you all list your names with your designations on this forum, it can be very intimidating to anyone who might be coming here to get help, and is new to the industry, or to PPFA. This is just my observation and I'm not trying to discredit anyone in anyway. Nor am I suggesting that you don't deserve to be proud. But if this forum is here to help and enlighten, it may be better to just list your names and put your credentials in your answer. You may find a lot more people coming here for help if they aren't afraid to ask a question. Just my 2 cents.
 
Pat,
Are you suggesting opening up the entire forum to the public. I do not like to see (potential) customers seeing what I do not know etc. We can automatically enroll every member of the PPFA to the forum.
Members who ask questions at this forum are not dumb. I ask questions, because I do not and never will know everything about framing. There are some experst among us, who are not experts in other fields of framing

It will be good to have more of the 600 odd members contribute, so that we can learn from each other.
 
Kai Vanuffelen said:
Pat,
Are you suggesting opening up the entire forum to the public. I do not like to see (potential) customers seeing what I do not know etc. We can automatically enroll every member of the PPFA to the forum.
Members who ask questions at this forum are not dumb. I ask questions, because I do not and never will know everything about framing. There are some experst among us, who are not experts in other fields of framing

It will be good to have more of the 600 odd members contribute, so that we can learn from each other.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't have to be open to the public, but it should be open to all framers and related businesses or shops. It could even be done by alloweing a member to endorse a framer or business who might be interested in joining but wants to see what it is all about first. In my book, the only dumb question is the one not asked, and many framers have told me that they are afraid to ask questions for fear of being put down for their lack of knowlege. I just think if PPFA made it easier for people to feel included and a part of the organization without pressure, they may get more new members to join and get the word out about why they should join..
 
That is something worth exploring Pat. Perhaps we can give these non PPFA members a two month access to the forum. If it is indefinite, then they may simply stay with the forum and not become a member of the PPFA. Is that what we want?
Am I right in stating, that only PPFFA members can access the lower section of the forum at present?
I particularly liked the expert advice from David about dust-extractors. Regularly I come across bits of information written by other framers, that are new to me and useful. The type of anecdotal stuff and life-experience that cannot be found written in framer's books.

The third column is for Chapter Leaders etc. I look at this, but do not have access to it. To me it seems like a tease and maybe visitors feel the seem when they only have access to the first column and not the one below.
 
Pat Kotnour said:
...many framers have told me that they are afraid to ask questions for fear of being put down for their lack of knowlege.
Click to expand...
That happens daily on the other, very-well-established, public forum for framers, but it does not happen here. The fear is unfounded. Check the posts in any Framers' Corner thread, and you will find only friendly, straight answers and encouragement.

Fear of the unknown is an understandably-human trait, but fear of communicating with peers at any level in a private, members-only forum does not seem to make sense. The whole purpose of Framers' Corner is to help PPFA members and give them a friendly venue for sharing their questions, events, ideas, and opinions, and it works. Moderating this forum is a breeze, compared to the other one.

Anyone in the industry can register for a limited visit to Framers' Corner, in order to see what is going on here. Then, if they care to participate, they can join the association. If a framer were afraid to inquire here, then opening up the forum to non-members might only increase their "fear of being put down".
 
Hi Pat

Just to add to Jim's great response...

What we have done in the past, and will be doing again, is a period where the entire forum is open to ALL frame shop owners (non PPFA members). Non PPFA framers can get a taste of all the great advice on the forum, and may be tempted to join the organization. PPFA membership has its privs, and access to this exclusive resource is one of them.

We are not trying to duplicate what other forum(s) are doing, and doing very well, but the goal is to go for 'quality over quantity'. So far, this forum seems to have a very welcome atmosphere and people post without fear of personal attacks or ridicule. There is no stupid question, here :) There hasn't been a single incident of aggression or political incitement, because everyone has been professional. Those causing such trouble elsewhere are not generally PPFA members, and in many cases they are not even framers.

There is also the issue of being able to talk openly about sensitive matters to the industry (pricing, etc), and the confidence of knowing that all viewers have been screened. The content will not appear on search engines, and customers will not be able to register to get access. I think this gives framers confidence to share more openly.

It takes a lot longer for the staff/volunteers, but we manually verify everyone who applies for an account on Framer's Corner. Each new registrant receives a personal email and welcome from the staff. We put folks into categories such as "PPFA MEMBER", "LAPSED PPFA MEMBER", "NON MEMBER FRAMER/GUEST", etc. The assigned category determines which sections they can access. The first 3 forums are open to everyone, including framers who are non PPFA members. This is a change from how it was in the past, with the old software; when all forums were private.

Your suggestion has merit and will be discussed, but I wanted to explain the reasoning and goals of the current system.

Thanks
Mike Labbe
PPFA Framer's Corner Committee Chair

PS: The new forum will celebrate its first birthday next week, on Valentine's day. Happy Birthday, FC! :)
 
If we were to open it up to everyone it wouldn’t exactly be a member benefit, would it? I would have a difficult time persuading anyone to join the PPFA using the Framer’s Corner as a benefit if anyone who wanted to or knew a member could sign on.

In addition to not having some of the contentious riffraff here it’s also nice to be able to talk openly about pricing and other sensitive issues knowing that consumers can’t see it. Opening up access would stifle that free exchange of information and (in my opinion) would be a huge mistake.
 
I agree that some people are not aware of PPFA. But can we really believe by opening this up to non-members they will become enough more aware of PPFA that they will join? (what terrible grammer) For a free forum, they have the grumble. On there, they can find out about the PPFA.

This forum is one of the few benefits for someone that lives in an area that does not have a chapter. I mean, really, if you live in say Montana, what benefits are there for being a PPFA member if this forum is open to everyone? Yes, you can take the PPFA classes at the WCAF, but you will have to pay slightly more. But the incremental cost of one or two classes is less than the first year charge for being a PPFA member (which I believe is $75.00 now), so no real benefit.

Yes, if you are in a local chapter you get to attend meetings, but non-member frame shops are also invited to the same meetings, and often at the same price. So again, what benefit.

I tell other non-PPFA frame shops that one of the advantages of the PPFA is this website, where PPFA members can get accurate, helpful information. Yes, they can get information on the Grumble, but is it accurate? There are so many conflicting opinions on the grumble that you need to learn which "expert" you can trust.

I'm for keeping this private for PPFA members because too many people believe you don't need to pay for something, if they can get it for free.

For example, I subscribe to a newspaper which is approximately $120.00 a year. I can also get it free on line. Most people get it for free and don't pay for the subscription. What is wrong with that picture? Fortunately, for the survival of the papers, they are now realizing they need to charge for their online material through subscription fees.

We need to do the same.
 
"I tell other non-PPFA frame shops that one of the advantages of the PPFA is this website, where PPFA members can get accurate, helpful information. Yes, they can get information on the Grumble, but is it accurate? There are so many conflicting opinions on the grumble that you need to learn which "expert" you can trust."


I totally agree with Russ on this one. I do not get on the other forum, sometimes I lurk, but that is about it because of the attitudes of a lot of people. The corner is a member benefit and should be promoted as such. As for the credentials, those that have studied to get to them have worked hard and should promote them. Would you ask a Doctor to not let people know he as attained that status? Each industry has its own set of credentials and if you are a member of that industry you like to know who has attained that status.

If people say they are afraid to post because they think the question is stupid assure them it is not. The only dumb question is the one not ask. Believe me I ask some dumb ones! Encourage them to check out the areas that are open and inquire about a short trial for the forum or tell them about the Trial membership in PPFA where they can join for a reduced fee if they meet the criteria and check out all the benefits for 1 year.

Just my thoughts,
Robin
 
Robin Gentry said:
If people say they are afraid to post because they think the question is stupid assure them it is not. The only dumb question is the one not ask. Believe me I ask some dumb ones! Encourage them to check out the areas that are open and inquire about a short trial for the forum or tell them about the Trial membership in PPFA where they can join for a reduced fee if they meet the criteria and check out all the benefits for 1 year.

Just my thoughts,
Robin
Click to expand...
I'm not suggesting that the forum be totally open to the public, but there seems to be a lot of the PPFA members who believe that everyone who is in the framing business knows about PPFA. Not so. The reason I say this is because of the number of framers I talk to every year who have never heard of PPFA.

When I helped start the NC chapter and we were going to have our first tabletop show, I went on line and pulled up the phone numbers of all the frame shops that were listed in the white pages in the 5 state area as well as Chicago. I called everyone of those shops and was amazed at how many were not aware of PPFA, even though they had been in business for years. Those calls resulted in 28 new members for our chapter and the WI and Hartland chapters.

Please understand that this is not a criticism to the many volunteers who keep PPFA afloat. They are the reason I am speaking out. What I am trying to say is that if there isn't more awareness of what PPFA is all about, the organization will cease to exist. Volunteers get burned out when they are called on year after year. And the only way to keep that from happening is to keep adding to the membership by bringing in new blood, with new ideas. There is no need for member benefit without new members to keep the organization strong.

I don't have all the answers, but as a member who is very much in touch with the outside framing world, I do know that we all need to start looking for one. It won't matter if you are a CPF or MCPF if the organization doesn't exist. Adding new members and keeping the old ones is the only way PPFA is going grow and remain strong. And that will only happen with more awareness.
 
Non-members who register will know when the "free" periods with open access occur. In less than a year, the FC has accumulated a book's-worth of knowledge for the price of a membership.

If you read deeply in the FC, you will see that as many questions are posed by MCPF's as answers. There is nothing intimidating here. Since its inception there hasn't been a single post that wasn't in the spirit of fellowship and the sharing of knowledge. Everyone here freely displays their identities, as well as their credentials. Anyone who reads even a few posts will see that far from being intimidating, it is clear that even the most credentialed framers feel free to display their need for knowledge without fear of heckling.

There are plenty of places to get free information. And a dedicated reader can sort through the vast array of information available and find an answer that works. Answers found here have been vetted by the membership. Less than perfect answers (many provided by me) are supplemented with better information by those who are more knowledgeable or more thoughtful in what they write.

For less than the subscription to a daily newspaper, a framer can have the benefit of the collective wisdom of the association. While the FC is a part of the whole, it is only a part. Our dues are less than half that of most trade associations. Because so much work is done by volunteers, we get a great bargain. From my perspective, we are practically giving it away now.
 
As far as I can see, there are no signs, that the PPFA will cease to exist in the near future. You right Pat, that volunteers get overloaded in their work. I noticed this superficially when voting for the elections for our board recently. It was not really an election, as there was only one candidate for each post. More like: do you agree to have this person as a member of the board, yes or no.
Framers in North America and Australia who are not aware of the existence of the PPFA and have been in business for several years are ignorant. When opening a framing shop, why not find out if there is a trade-organization, that represents framers, just as you would when being an electrician.

Being a member of the PPFA does not require that person to be fully involved in all the activities. If a member wants, they can get a window-sticker, stating membership for that year and a certificate of membership for in the shop and that's it.

What I take out of the PPFA are as follows and for 75 bucks that is a lot:
- Windowstickers
- Advertising stating that I am a member of the PPFA
- Framers Corner
- Discount on PPFA books and merchandise
- Being listed on the PPFA website under Find a Framer near you
- Contact with other members
- Increased knowledge about framing
- Taking part in the Print Competition
- The CPF Exam and recertification. These are open to non-members too

The list goes on
For others it includes discounts on insurance, attending the WCAF, attending meetings of local chapters, being a volunteer in the organization etc.
 
Reality...

Pat Kotnour said:
...I just think if PPFA made it easier for people to feel included and a part of the organization without pressure, they may get more new members to join and get the word out about why they should join..
Click to expand...

Hi Pat,

Honestly, I don't think that PPFA can't make it too much easier. :encouragement: Trial membership fees, non-members visiting chapter events, partial access to this forum....

Sad to say but many will never "get it" even if they had full access to the Framers Corner and were paid to join PPFA, they would let the membership expire.

I totally agree with the comments above that part of this forum needs to be a Members Only Perk.

John
 
Pat Kotnour said:
.... who believe that everyone who is in the framing business knows about PPFA. Not so. The reason I say this is because of the number of framers I talk to every year who have never heard of PPFA. .
Click to expand...

I agree that many framers do not know about PPFA, and that is an important issue. PPFA is mentioned in the trade magazines, but some framers also don't know about the trade magazines either. It is great that you mention it to your customers.

We have our local distributor, Colorado Moulding, mention PPFA in their monthly newsletter, so their customers are more familiar with PPFA. But not all framers buy from local distributors.

So it gets down to each of us doing what we can to get the word out.

For example, when I see / hear of a new frame shop, I try to stop by and introduce myself, and mention PPFA. I believe the best way to get other framers to learn about PPFA is to talk to them about PPFA.
 
The most effective recruitment tool will always be face-to-face contact. Just like our customers, we do business with people, not faceless companies. Most of us buy from companies with reps who call on us or otherwise have a strong personal connection with us.

It may seem old-fashioned, but each of us spreading the word when the opportunity arises has a greater impact than any ad campaign could.
 
No matter how much they love us, sales reps have their own business to worry about. We do have some that really do promote PPFA, but I think they are the exception.

There is not much incentive other than love for them to make PPFA a part of their presentations. And in fact, as one rep explained to me, there may be a down side. There are framers out there that, whether really knowledgeable about PPFA or not, have strong and negative opinions about PPFA. It can actually work against rep.

It is just my opinion, but I think any real push from reps would have to come from the company's top down. There would have to be a real incentive for a company to make this a big priority.
 
Kai Vanuffelen said:
Those that come in contact with many different framers are in fact the sales reps of molding companies.
Is it possible to somehow let them introduce non-members of the PPFA to the existence and benefits of our organization?
Click to expand...

Our local Studio rep is very supportive of PPFA, and attends all of our meetings, and provides door prizes. I believe he mentions PPFA when he sees new customers, but he certainly doesn't push it.
 
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