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the non member question

Ylva Callewaert

Well-known member
Messages
94
Location
Gloucester, MA
Company
Artemis Custom Framing
I have started a thread in one of the FaceBook framer's groups, called Underpinner (if anyone is interested, find it on FB and ask to join the group)

The question I posted there was why non members are non members. What keeps them from becoming a PPFA member. Maybe we can get some information that we can use. Maybe not. Worth a try at least.

So far some answers:

Too expensive
No chapter within reasonable distance.
 
Yiva, I see some other answers. I have started stumping in our area. I am not saying I agree, but these are some of the comments I have heard.

1. "I see no positive return for the time and money I invest."
2. The framers see PPFA chapters as events only activities that take place on Sundays, and "because I work Monday thru Saturday, I need a down day to be with family."
3. " ...used to belong, but with all of the changes since the merger with PMA, everything has gone down-hill, and PPFA is a step child and all the money that should be going to PPFA is really going to PMA. And why do I want to support the Photo Industry?"
4. "It might be an okay organization but I don't want to spend the time. I already know what I'm doing."
5. "I'm successful, so why should I join an organization of competitors?"
6. "Even if it was free, I just don't have the time..."
7. "Just not interested"
 
Another Irishman, Steve Crozier, has joined the infamous Dermot in that thread. In my estimation, both are issuing comments and questions intended to bash American framing education in general, and PPFA in particular. Unfortunately, it looks like another PPFA discussion is headed south.
 
An up-to-the-minute report:

The worm turns...Nicole Ohme is complaining to David Lantrip in her usual tone about the CPF exam. Paul Cascio is sniping at David, too. Rob Markoff and I have both resisted speaking our minds. Surprisingly, Dermot has been quite civil this time, and Steve is probably wondering what the heck he has gotten himself into. Ylva remains calm.

The useful exchange of information and opinions in this discussion far exceeds what we normally see in Facebook and Grumble threads. So far most of the conversation is about "accreditation", which Dermot says would improve PPFA's credibility in framing education. But how to pay for it?

The conversation is lively, ongoing, and surviving the sporadic vitriol. Ah, but the day is young.
:peace:
 
Thanks for posting that play-by-play, Jim. I've been following that discussion too, and hope it doesn't head off the rails like the other one did. I swear I just don't understand the vitriol that PPFA seems to inspire. Half of the malcontents see it as "elitist" and the other as having no value for them. Fine... if it's not for you for whatever reason, don't join. But I don't see the percentage in bashing it, other than to simply gain attention for the basher. They could at least grudgingly admire the fact that current members are attempting to take this time of transition as an opportunity to improve the organization and are reaching out for ideas from all quarters. That doesn't seem very "elitist" to me.
:pop2: Rick
 
I've read enough to know better than to jump in. The saying goes, never argue with an idiot, they will draw you down to their level and beat you with experience.
There may be some diamonds in the rough.
 
Yes, I know with their large budget, but how? What kind of message and how would they deliver it? I am serious about this. If we figure this out, we can start to combat this stuff. Clearly, what we have been doing isn't working.

We seem incapable of ignoring it. So how would it be done?

Frankly, some of our biggest detractors have too much time on their hands to be successfully engaged in business.
 
I joined the group today and read the post in question. At this point it is doing more harm than good.

Somehow it become a discussion how education is irrelevant or overrated. The very person responsible for highjacking the main topic and lecturing many successful business owners and educators went out of business last year. I don't know if she is working as a framer anywhere else currently. She is also a group admin.

There is always a challenge asking questions like this one in an open forum setting without tight moderation and constant

comment refocusing. This is why I suggested a focus group a month or so ago.
 
Yes, I know with their large budget, but how? What kind of message and how would they deliver it? I am serious about this. If we figure this out, we can start to combat this stuff. Clearly, what we have been doing isn't working.

We seem incapable of ignoring it. So how would it be done?

Frankly, some of our biggest detractors have too much time on their hands to be successfully engaged in business.

They can't fight it Greg, they have worse than us...

Go down to posts on page...

Xfinity

Stupid X1 DVR box died, so I call costumer service they say oh just bring it into Comcast and exchange it. (What you don't want to upgrade anything) "ok sorry you lost all your saved programs have a nice night" thanks a lot I pay $120/month for a headache.

The X1 platform is a joke this is to anyone who reads this do not get this pos it cost $250 a month to use and it's not what the commercial or advertisements said it is and in matter of fact I refusing to make another payment until your guys Internet issues in the Colorado Springs area are resolved. If you want to shut my service off XXXXXXX go for it (719)-573-5163 that the phone number linked to my account.

My internet is out again. Take notice I will now be charging you a fee of $10 per hour for every hour it's out. This is an ongoing problem that you refuse to fix. Your service sucks and I'm sick of it.

AT&T

After being contacted day after day after day by your agents re. moving my DSL to Uverse, I have now requested 3 different times for AT&T to put me on the internal "do not call" list - twice to agents during calls, and once a few days ago by posting previously on your Facebook page. However, I continue to receive these calls, the latest this evening. Per the FTC, "Telemarketers must comply IMMEDIATELY with any do-not-call request you make during a solicitation call." (Notice this says IMMEDIATELY, not within 30 days.) If I receive one more solicitation phone call from your agents, I will be filing a complaint with the FTC and will consider filing a small claims lawsuit regarding your lack of compliance with the Telephone Consumer Protection Act.

HELLO AT&T, I NEED HELP. I have called in now on 3 different occasions because of billing problems. Every time the initial rep claims there is nothing that they can do and I need to speak with a manager. When I ask to speak with a manager I am always told that they are not available, and I will have to wait 48 hours for a call back and this NEVER happens. It is at the point that My bill coming due and I still don't have a solution. HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP. This has been an ongoing nightmare of reoccurring issues since we sighed up for service in June/July of last year. Can you please get me in to contact with some that knows how to do their job? SINCE my bill IS NOW PAST DUE and this needs to fixed before my service is suspended...I work from home based through my internet so this is an EXTREMELY important issue..if I can't make money, how am I supposed to pay you guys?


Frankly a little controversy can be okay.
 
I saw the discussion on the facebook group owned by Eng-Theng Khoo. (co moderated by Nicole, Ylva, and Trude)

A little controversy is fine as long as its tactful/productive. It's always the same 2 or 3 people that bully the others, take pot shots, and make it personal. Its the whole "It's MY way or you are STUPID", not owning personal failures, and those with a vested financial interest in seeing perceived competitors fail.

Its great to hear from everyone, but not in such a toxic environment - where the moderator is the main instigator and not a neutral party. Even though the number of participants is small, It does more harm than good, IMO. Every well intentioned conversation about PPFA gets taken hostage and driven to the same vicious personal tirade. If I was a new person seeing that in the future, on Facebook, I might have the wrong impression that the organization promotes that kind of aggressive behavior on their own forum and at meetings. That just isn't an accurate representation of what we are all about!

Personally, I think a one on one/personal survey would be a better way to query nonmembers. We would get open honest answers, rather than hesitation in fear of being attacked by the regular bullies. No drama/chest beating/bullying. They could even do so anonymously, if desired. Then we could compile the results and discuss/share publicly. This is something that should be planned and done by the consumer awareness committee, not by individuals acting on their own.

My two cents as a reader of said mess

Mike
 
Greg, the only way I can see to shut up the complainer is to publicly discredit them. An ad hominem attack is really nasty and really doesn't elevate the cause. Perhaps best to let the rant go on and let those that can see through the reasons have a better chance to do so.

Mike, Khoo is currently in Australia, formerly from Malaysia.
 
I'm not concerned about this PPFA bashing thread or any of the infinite others. I am wondering what the corporate pr guru's do when confronted with this problem. I should have stated the question more clearly.

Tylenol is still one of the top-selling analgesics
Coke Classic survived Coke II
Exxon is still in business and a viable corporate name

How did they assess their PR disasters, develop a plan, move on and not only survive but prosper?

Mike has a good idea here.
 
Well, they all recovered when they still had control of the modes of communication. They didn't really have to deal with the strong vox populi afforded by the Internet that would have to be taken into account currently.
The bank debacle with the consequent occupy movement was managed by simply staying the course and outlasting the vocal opposition. Keep the message consistent and ignore the naysayers.
 
How would a large company overcome this kind of PR problem?

Greg, perhaps a more relevant question is, "How would the PPFA overcome this PR problem?"

I don't have the answers to a problem so large, but I do have some observations and suggestions:

1. If you want to survey those who don't belong, and/or don't like PPFA, for goodness sakes, don't do it in a public forum. And, yes that forum is public.

2. Act like you really want to know the answers, even if you don't. Acknowledge that in their eyes PPFA sucks. Then, ask them what you can do to make it better.

3. Stop using superlatives, and tell your unofficial representatives to either ST*U, or stopping acting as if they are your agents unless they acknowledge their position in PPFA, as a paid speaker, officer, etc.. Don't talk ever about PPFA as if you have no skin in the game, because it make PPFA look bad and makes you look like a crook.

4. You're not the best at anything, so stop claiming you are. The other 90% of the industry resents it when you claim you are. If you want to blow your own horn, make sure it's measurable and verifiable or you destroy your credibility.
 
Well then.

First of all, the Underpinner group is NOT public. Members need to be approved first and can be removed too. Khoo started this a long time ago, it didn't get used much until recently.

We can all talk here of course, among PPFA members. I do feel it is important to reach out to non members. Sure, we can ignore them and tell ourselves that 'it doesn't matter what we do'. How can you understand where the PPFA needs to go, if you are not willing to collect information from none members? Sure, there is a lot of mudslinging, I am totally immune to that as I do read between the lines and quite a few answers, both in the group and through PMs made me think.

It is too bad that a few people in that group ruined another perfectly good thread, but it is what happens on every forum. It unfortunately became a discussion about education and I, personally, thought that Dermot had some very interesting things to say. But that was not the original question.

I have heard from quite a few people, privately, who were members, but didn't re-new. I know everyone on here is quick to dismiss what might not seem like a valid reason. That is the kind of attitude that needs to be fought, from within. I hear, too many times, that 'it is what it is'. 'if they can't see it, well, the loss is theirs'.

I am a PPFA member. I will renew year after year from now on, because I do hope this organization will survive, thrive and draw in many more framers. We should NOT be divided, PPFA or non PPFA.

What I have learned from former members: they didn't feel welcome. That was the main reason. They went to a meeting, felt a little lost, didn't know how to jump in, make contacts, left unsatisfied and thought 'never again'.

When I opened my shop (over 6 years ago now), I joined the PPFA as my mentor advised me to. I went to a meeting and my experience was very much like the one described. I felt lost. I didn't know how to approach anyone as I was such a newbie, so found it a bit overwhelming. You have no idea how intimidating a group can be. I didn't feel part of that group.
I didn't re-new.

I became a member once again last year (the year before probably) because I now know so many framers, made quite a few friends and it was fun meeting them face to face. How did that happen? Online. The Grumble, Facebook groups and chats.

Solution: have a table, at the door, with a specific 'new members here' sign. Have a group of 'old timers' ready to guide such new member through the whole night, explaining the procedures. Be a host. Connect them with other people, maybe other new members etc.etc. MAKE them feel welcome.

Another main concern is 'price'. I know everyone here will quickly dismiss that. 'how can someone not be able to afford the $175 annually'. Well, I have been there. Not being able to justify to pay that amount when times were tight enough and I'd rather spend the money elsewhere. What would have helped: a monthly payment plan. I realize that that is a lot more work. However, if a membership is 175, do a monthly payment of $20 for example. It should be not that difficult to set that up through Paypal?

As for 'meetings are too far from my location'. I know many chapters try to offer different locations. Our last one was a 3 hour drive for me. It being winter, having some family obligations as well, made me decide to pass on that one. So I completely understand that concern.
 
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