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I am very angry at Jay

Cliff Wilson MCPF

Cliff Wilson MCPF

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Framed In Tatnuck
I am also very angry at myself for not speaking up!
I was in total shock.
At the "Retail Panel discussion" he made comments about PPFA>
He was misinformed, and made incorrect, rude, and inconsiderate statements about PPFA.

I had just decided to add Prisma to my offerings and now I am reconsidering.

Did anyone get the exact words he used?
I don't want to misquote him.
 
I was leaving just about that time and heard him say that he wasn't a member, but I was out the door for anything after that.

I do think there is a real problem with respect for the PPFA as in the vast majority of the vendors and framers don't respect it. Look at where the PPFA booth was stuck at the WCAF show when they are partnered with it.
I don't think this perception will change till the PPFA takes on a business focus rather than having the focus being on the craft of framing.
 
Also Cliff, I don't think that was the venue to have a protracted argument about the value of the PPFA. It was probably better that you kept quite. I don't know if I have that much restraint when something I care about gets called out.
 
I had planned on being there for that discussion, but was distracted by an issue at home and missed it. Now I am glad I did. I don't know if I could have stayed quiet.

I really want to hear more about this. Anybody else there that might be able to tell us more?
 
I would very much like to see a transcript of the question at hand. I know that they record these and publish them in the magazine, so it should be available.
 
I'll try my best to recall, but I'm very open to correction.

A question was asked from the floor to the panelists:

Are you a PPFA member? Two panelists were and one "used to be." Then Jay responded.

He said he was NOT a member. Then he said there was new "ownership" and asked if any of them were there. When no one responded he said something like "that says it all." Then he said something like " an organization that represents less than 20% of the industry is clearly ineffective and not worth being a member of."

I wish I had the exact words, but next he said something like he "knew of nothing of value from PPFA."
 
Gail and I were there but had to leave early to prepare for my 10:00 class.

I believe he, like so many others, gave up on PPFA several years ago, when PMAI was badly managing the association and ignored his good advice.
 
Wow! I would really appreciate hearing the comments during the panel discussion. Now I am really glad I left on Tuesday because this is upsetting. Why would he not want to be a proponent of something that is so good for our industry?
 
If I were in that position, I know I wouldn't want to alienate a group of people that I had identified as representing 20% of my wholesale market right in their own back yard.

Surely he knows we talk to each other, right?

There is lots of room for disagreement throughout this (and every other) industry. But if he knows so little about us, I have to wonder about the rest of the information he is basing his expertise upon.

Barring new information coming forward, I'll certainly be reading what he writes and listening to what he says with a great deal more care in the future.

People who have accepted payment from PPFA and then later openly criticize the organization after they are no longer making money from it are always a little suspect anyway.

Weird, I had planned on ordering samples because a PPFA member who I respect spoke so highly of his moulding line. Seeing Harry's picture sure put the brakes on that.
 
I have a lot of issues with the PPFA, but I have hope for a change based on several conversations.
I joined up to help guide that change rather than just waiting for it to happen before joining.
 
Cliff Wilson said:
He said he was NOT a member. Then he said there was new "ownership" and asked if any of them were there. When no one responded he said something like "that says it all." Then he said something like " an organization that represents less than 20% of the industry is clearly ineffective and not worth being a member of."

I wish I had the exact words, but next he said something like he "knew of nothing of value from PPFA."
Click to expand...

Coming from a top-dog industry leader, comments like that seem unnecessarily brutal to those of us who work hard to keep PPFA going and provide benefits, such as this forum, the CPF and MCPF programs, the competition program, the Guidelines books, and more. These things may have considerable value to some framers, but perhaps not to the majority of framers and certainly not to Mr. Goltz.

Jay Goltz's remarks surely alienated a small (very small) percentage of the framers in the room, but the majority surely agreed with him. His negative opinion of PPFA is popular and - let's be honest - at least partially correct. PPFA should have been represented there, even if by only a conspicuous table or two of enthusiastic members, and a spokesperson should have been ready to stand up for PPFA at any opportunity in that open forum. In the bigger picture, our industry's only trade association has never reached "critical mass" of membership in all its years; PPFA has not managed to attract a majority, or even a large minority, of framers at any time. We can be angry with Jay Goltz for his slap-in-the-face commentary, but it would be difficult to fault his logic.

PPFA is like a small lifeboat in a big ocean. The association has helped a lot of framers over the years. Faithful members have been rowing against the tide since the beginning, and at times frantically bailing to stay afloat. Jay Goltz's negative remarks represent one more surge of angry surf to swamp this leaky little boat. It's "sink or swim" time again, my friends. Who will rescue PPFA this time?
 
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Jim, thank you for you honest assessment of where the PPFA is currently at and how it is seen. I talk to many a framer that has been a member, but felt that they got nothing out it for their dues and even worse that their dues went to programs that they saw as frivolous and wasteful.
To gain new members, we need to look at 2 sides of the coin. What are things that they see as objections and then what benefits would bring them in. Chickie can't go around intimidating everyone. :laughing:
 
Hey Jay,

If you're not a really big fan of framers supporting PPFA, then how do you feel about membership in FramerSelect? :sneakiness:

He may be correct in his facts, but for an industry leader, I am discouraged to learn of his insensitive remarks on the last day of the show. I believe that image has been tarnished.

John
 
Not that I disagree with you, Dave; but are you sure about Chickie?

But seriously, I know you aren't that afraid of her. You would not have made the leap if you hadn't been thinking about it already.

We need to identify what it is that made you think about it and what made you decide now.

And we need to make sure we identify things that bring value to the membership.
 
Truth be told, I don't feel we get all that much out of the PPFA, but we want to support the organization and the good that it does for new shops . . . as well as the CPF program. It's nice having a PPFA sticker on the window, though I don't know how much that does, probably more having the logo on our website.

We don't use any of the insurance, shipping, or other offerings by the PPFA.

I do get to chat here with the more serious dedicated framers. There's the Grumble too, but that's all public (no private discussion threads like this one) and doesn't have the caliber of members as here.

Maybe there is more we should be taking advantage of with the PFFA. Dunno.

Andrew
 
I am very disappointed like many of you at the comments. I was there and Cliff summed it up pretty well. Now I know many think I should have stood up and said something but honestly it was not the place. Just think about it you are in Jay's arena. Any thing you say he is going to go full force as he has his audience. Nothing you say will be interpreted the way it is intended as he will twist it to fit his agenda. I am not getting into an argument in that setting. It is not worth it.

I agree with some of the things he said BUT PPFA does have value. Yes we can improve what we do and that is what we are working toward. We have new management that has been on the job since December 22-23. They have already done an awesome job with behind the scenes items which made the convention run as smoothly as it did. They are now in the position to look at the areas we need to improve. We need to give them a bit of time to get up to speed on everything.

I find Value in PPFA and obviously you do also or you would not be here!
 
Jay bashes PPFA at many framer events. This is not the first industry breakfast where it has happened. It happened at a supplier open house where he spoke. His ill feelings go way back. Any good leader knows that they should not criticize, complain, or condemn. PPFA has changed several times over since his issues. Is it time to let it go?
 
I can't say "I am very angry at Jay" because I wasn't there but from what is being said I am willing to say I can't agree with his premise.

" an organization that represents less than 20% of the industry is clearly ineffective and not worth being a member of."

I have taken a number Jim's classes and he has said in his classes that we make "80% of our sales from 20% of our customers. Implying that we should definitely respect that part of our market.

As a PPFA member since 1979 I have seen a number of changes in the framing industry and the PPFA. The most important change has been the quality of framing made available to our customers through the efforts of the PPFA. Without the PPFA the general knowledge of our industry would be so lacking as to be almost criminal. Unfortunately to non-members and to the industry the first question is "how much will I MAKE being a member or backing the PPFA?"
My question to every one is where would our educations and abilities be now with out the PPFA?
Got a better solution with out all the agenda driven BS suppliers like to sling, have at it. If not, please sit down, shut up and help row the boat to make our industry better for our customers.
 
I wasn't there, but the story has traveled and spread among framers.

I cannot understand how anyone in the framers education world could make a statement like that. To me, that someone looses some of his credibility. There is no need to bash the PPFA. If he doesn't like the organization, well, no need to talk about it either. If someone asks 'are you a PPFA member' he could simply say 'no'. Why he wouldn't support the only organization we have is beyond me.

I don't utilize all the benefits. To me, membership is not about my benefits. I enjoy our local chapter, love to get together with other framers. I value the guest speakers they bring in. Sure, you could go to those meetings without being a member, but why would one? Maybe at first, to check it out.

My impression was that Jay is a valuable and respected person within our industry. I've read some of his blogs (although for years it seems he's been saying that the recession is now truly over). Respect goes both ways. Seems he still has something to learn.
 
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