60 degrees

[Kai Vanuffelen]

Had my competition-piece returned yesterday in a box all battered and torn. Surprising the glass didn't break, because the frame had so many scratches and dents.
On the judges notes was mentioned, that the wire was too long and it had to be at an angle of 60 degrees. I checked at the back of the frame and the wire had a knot in the middle, as apparently someone decided to hang it on the wall with one hook instead of two as I am accustomed to.

Yes, if a framer places the wire for the picture to be hung with two hooks, then the wire is going to be long, but only when hung on one hook. Then you see the wire and hook above the frame.

When using two hooks for hanging a picture, the wire will not be visible and the picture will be more stable, easier on the wire, easier to hang straight and less likely to shift during the occasional earthquake.

Probably the judge marking my score frames with having one hook for hanging in mind.
Do I know something more than this judge?

 

[Gregory K. Norris CPF]

There is always some room for subjectivity and error in judging.

One way to avoid this in the future is to do what we do when we intend for a customer to hang a frame on 2 hangers. We do it often enough that we put a label on the back explaining the need for 2 hangers and why. There isn't any reason not to do this on a competition piece as long as it doesn't have your store name.

 

[David Lantrip MCPF GCF]

If I were judging a competition piece I would assume that it was framed to be hung from two hooks as all the PPFA guidelines recommend. So in your case it would have been fine. As Gregory mentioned a note on the back explaining that the frame should be hung with two hangers X distance apart would have eliminated any issue and would be the type of nice touch that judges appreciate.

Or you could avoid the issue altogether and use a wireless hanging system.

 

[David Hewitt MCPF]

I guess a Note should have been, definitely in regards to a customer not knowing proper procedures. But Kai is dealing with a judge, that is, or should be certified, and should know hanging procedures of 60 degrees or better with wire is a standard. ( Could a judge be a grandfathered CPF that wasn't current in training, and still be considered qualified for judging?)
Kai deserves an explanation, so he can understand or dispute the decision.
In my opinion, the ability of good old common sense, with an open mind, is a huge factor in this profession. Id like to give an example. I have seen very narrow frames on very heavy items (mirrors for example) with no extra supports of any kind, and the cleat was mostly in the center of the top of the frame. Now the cleat on the wall had large screws and was in studs, but no thought was given to the weakest points of the frame assembly, a common sense issue.

 

[Gregory K. Norris CPF]

There is a procedure for questioning a judge's decision in the Competition Guidelines. If you don't have a copy, it is on the PPFA website under the Competition link at the top.

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

Within the past year, I was judging a competition and turned a piece around and said, "oops, look at this wire."

IMO, it was too tight. No way to get enough angle even with two hooks.

One of the judges I was with said, "yeah, that's definitely too loose."

We discussed it and the other judge understood, but hadn't heard that before or had forgotten.
Stuff happens. The competition committee tries their best to conduct classes and train judges, but sometimes things get forgotten to be taught, or people forget. My suspicion is that the wire issue didn't cost that many points, but on my competition pieces, I use a two point, no wire, system to minimize the risk of a not knowledgeable judge.

Even with all the guidelines, a lot of subjectivity and opinion comes into play. There are other areas that have some of the same point risk.

 

[Jim Miller MCPF GCF]

All of the recommendations for hanging by wire that I've seen in the past decade or two recommend using two wall hooks and having the wire long enough for at least 60-degree angles off the frame fastenings; the closer to vertical, the better. Every PPFA competition judge should know that.

The judge was wrong. Kai, if I were you I would challenge the criticism of the wire. While that might not result in any adjustment of your score, it would at least serve to educate the errant judge.

Still, the others are right. While it should not be necessary for fair judging, it would have been wise for you to include specific hanging instructions on the dustcover. Or, as noted above, use a wireless, two-point hanging system.

I would not be surprised or concerned about the condition of the frame. Handling and transit issues for a competition frame can be brutal, and damage is almost inevitable. In my opinion, all competition frames ought to be considered disposable.

 

[Wally Fay CPF]

It depends on when and by whom the knot was tied in the wire. The judge may have assumed that the framer did it, when in fact someone else down the line did it to keep the wire under control or to provide for a single point hanging.

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

I was one of the crew helping with packing after the competition.
There is a lot of work and a fairly large crew trying to get it done.
I know I and I believe all of the others took as much care as possible in the packing.
Of course, we have no control over what happens in shipping.

 

[Robin Gentry MCPF]

I would suggest you send a formal inquiry to Linda Pujo. The judges do look for 60 degrees with two hangers. They would not have looked at this with one hanger. My thought is when the piece was put on the display wall the hanging crew may have done this. They should not have done this, IMHO. It would not have been done by the judges.

Please submit a inquiry to the Competition Board.

Also with concern to the packing there were several people packing, I helped with this also. The pieces I helped with if they did not have enough packing material we did our best to add additional material and cushion the pieces well for transport. I am not sure how yours was packaged.

We did have one or two people that should have won awards for packing as they had custom boxes which fit their pieces like a glove with lots of foam for cushioning and directions to be sure they were properly repackaged. Please know the crews doing the packing take care to do a good job. The better the packing upon arrival the better the packing on return.

Again Please send an inquiry to the Competition Board

 

[Ormond Williams MCPF]

It depends on when and by whom the knot was tied in the wire. The judge may have assumed that the framer did it, when in fact someone else down the line did it to keep the wire under control or to provide for a single point hanging.

I must have been hiding under a rock for the past 28 years! I have never once seen or heard of tying a knot in the middle of a wire and I'm darn sure Kai didn't do it!

The wire or a dee ring would have to have been undone in order to do that! Surely no-one should be permitted to interfere with any part of a competition entry at any time???

 

[David Lantrip MCPF GCF]

I must have been hiding under a rock for the past 28 years! I have never once seen or heard of tying a knot in the middle of a wire and I'm darn sure Kai didn't do it!

The wire or a dee ring would have to have been undone in order to do that! Surely no-one should be permitted to interfere with any part of a competition entry at any time???

I can't imagine anyone would have really done that. Perhaps rather than a knot Kai meant a kink in the wire, which you see at the point at which the wire made contact with the wall hook.

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

I can't imagine anyone would have really done that. Perhaps rather than a knot Kai meant a kink in the wire, which you see at the point at which the wire made contact with the wall hook.

If you pull a long wire together and loop it into a knot you don't have to take the d-rings off and it shortens the wire so one hook can be used.
I can easily see the "hanging crew" (not PPFA members) doing that to save time.
It's not right, but I can see it happening.

 

[Kai Vanuffelen]

It was a knot and whether it was done with or without taking the D ring off is irrelevant.
The piece was framed before I had the small stickers printed with the hand pointed to either side. Someone may be able to point to the right place on this Forum for members to find it.

Before I had these stickers placed on customers' work, each month I had at least one customer walking into the shop a month with a picture under their arm wrapped in kraft paper. I knew what they came to tell me - the wire is to long.
But you are meant to hang it with two hooks - my reply.

Now hardly anyone comes back. Only the ones who live in rental houses and don't wish to make two holes in the wall, ot those whose artwork is to be judged in a local competition, where there is only one hook to hang the picture, so that the wire will hang above the top rail.

 

[Linda Pujo]

This response is LONG overdue, but a computer glitch lost my initial response. I apologize for the delay, but felt some explanation is required -- especially in view of many responses reflecting harsh criticism of our competition judges.

All PPFA Competition judges are expected to know the standards, so no -- a judge did not make a mistake. Competition Board members were on site during the judging and witnessed what was going on. NO judge ever tied a knot in the wire that was, in fact, too long. I've seen it on pieces submitted for the MCPF exam as well. The 2-hook, 60 degrees is standard but not everyone positions picture hanging hooks in the same position. The International competition judges know the standard, and we on the Competition Board stand behind our judges. Where the picture hooks would be positioned makes a big difference. Two hooks could be near the D-rings, or side by side at the center. Two hooks still being used either way.

Not everyone uses the same standard for where the hooks should go, so yes -- sometimes the wire is still too long, and I have seen where the picture hooks show above the top edge of the frame because the wire is still too long. The only written standard I ever saw (and is it correct?) recommended positioning the hooks at 1/3 the frame's width with just enough slack in the wire to get the 60-degree angle. A comment was made -- the more toward vertical, the better. Closer to vertical from the hardware is not going to be 60 degrees, but the actual standard (for the MCPF exam) reads "at LEAST 60 degrees". Closer to vertical is going to be more than 60 degrees and acceptable. Do we need a physics expert to weigh in?

It has gotten to the point (in International competition judging) where competitors actually draw a diagram on their dust cover to show WHERE the hooks would be positioned, and they actually draw the 60-degree arc for where the wire would fall. Good for them. It prevents a judge from potentially making the wrong call.

For the 2014 International competition, the judges for PRINT were ALL MCPFs and, in their defense, they do know what they were talking about. As for the knot in the wire, that was most likely done by the hanging crew -- NOT the judges. While putting a knot in the wire was not the best solution, perhaps having a great deal of wire showing above the frame could have been seen as a potential cause for embarrassment. What most people do not realize is the long hours volunteers put in to hanging the PPFA gallery wall in a pleasing presentation. Just guessing, but for a display lasting only a couple of days -- the pieces most likely are not hung on two hooks for such a short amount of time, unless the size and weight of a piece absolutely requires it. While this explanation doesn't make it right, competitors need to take into consideration that we rely on volunteers, and don't have an unlimited amount of time or resources to hang every piece on two hooks. Unfortunately, it is not possible to keep everyone 100% happy with everything. The hanging height, the spacing, the lighting -- whatever -- are all issues mentioned less than favorably just about every single year. (Did you know that any wiring / lighting has to be done by approved union workers? Very expensive / cost prohibitive.)

Next -- to address the score sheet issue. There would be a place on the score sheet for subtracting points for wire that is too long -- but only in the one question on the sheet dealing with final fitting. There is NO place on the score sheet to subtract points for a poor shipping container. The crew doing unpacking and set-up did notice inadequate packaging for this piece, but the judges would have no knowledge of the shipping container. I was one of the ones unpacking this particular piece and would strongly encourage the use of a better packaging method, especially for an international shipment. If I could make a suggestion it would be to use a foam padding material (like fabric stores sell for making seat cushions) and constructing a "nest" to fit the exact measurements of the frame. The thicker the foam padding, the better.

Finally, in defense of PPFA competition judges. They are the best in this industry and they are all trained to very specific standards. To be asked to judge at the International level, they are the best of the best. (No inexperienced judges at this level.) AND -- International judges are required to submit to a judge critique. Competition Board members on site read through ALL score sheets -- not to change or influence scores, but to make sure competitors are getting the best feedback possible -- along with ensuring an entry is not scored down more than once for the same thing.

I apologize for the novel I've written, but we on the Competition Board feel very strongly about supporting our PPFA judges, but also in making sure all competitors get the correct response to any issue.

 

[Rick Granick]

I created a label graphic instructing that the frame should be hung using two hooks. It prints out on standard mailing labels 30-up.
I'll try to save it as a PDF and attach it here if anyone is interested.
Rick

 

[David Hewitt MCPF]

Linda, I believe Kai was looking for an explanation. HE feels his work was done correctly. Judges felt not.
You have stated that in fact the wire was to long, but was it? Allowing his explanation as to why he chose to do it the way he did would verify correctness or not.

Example of a related situation I saw just last week. Stacked mouldings, very narrow and very deep profiles. D-rings at 180 degree would be great, but in this case (With out a big explanation.)A wire was used, with the wire positioned to wall anchors at 22.5 degrees (and or 337.5 degrees). Seeing this, I knew that this framer understood the stress levels that could be put on this frame with improper wire angles.
With dust cover installed, and not being able to see the profile of this frame, could someone claim that the wire was too long?

I would allow Kai an explanation of his reasoning, and possibly reinstate his points lost.

I have seen a lot of competition judging in my 30 plus years in this profession. Its my opinion that when presenting a item for competition, that you write a explanation of anything you do that may be out of the ordinary, explaining as to why you did it the way you did. This will help ease any doubts.

Again with example. In 2007 I presented (for a certification test) a framed oil with acrylic as protection, both front and back, at the time this was a procedure that was not totally accepted as a proper procedure. I had enclosed a letter of explanation for my reasons. It was accepted, but note there were others that thought different.

 

[Kai Vanuffelen]

Thanks for all your responses.
I am not after reinstating points and the piece is hanging in my shop with a card stating, that it was entered in the PPFA framing competition. The battered red frame ended up in the woodburner and it was replaced with a purple frame as suggested by one of the judges.

So yes, entering a competition helps to get other opinion about our workmanship and make future-improvements.

The suggestion of having the wires at sixty degrees and using two hooks is a good one and needs further clarification in framing guidelines. My thought is, that the points of attachment to the wall have to be as close to the vertical rails as possible. This way the wire is as long as possible, creating a maximum vertical position of the wires. This creates the least amount of stress on the wires.

Further, it creates more stability for the picture, when hung on the wall and less likely for the picture to slide to one side over time.
Rick's development of two stickers on the back of the frame indicating where the bottoms of the picturehooks are supposed to be is very helpful and I have had a large number printed since.

Very few customers nowadays come back asking if I can shorten the wire, because it is too long and extends beyond the top rail. They are the ones who ignored the stickers at the back.
My namestickers at the bottom starts off by stating in bold letters " Use two picturehooks for stability".

 

[Rick Granick]

Here's my sticker. I put it at the top, centered above the centerpoint of the wire. Under it I write "Approx. 12" apart, 4-1/2" down from top" or whatever is appropriate. On large pieces that have two-point hanging systems such as ring hangers, Wallbuddies, etc. I make a template from glass box cardboard with holes to mark through at the proper hanging points, which are indicated on the template by... more stickers.
Rick

 

[Rick Granick]

If you pull a long wire together and loop it into a knot you don't have to take the d-rings off and it shortens the wire so one hook can be used.
I can easily see the "hanging crew" (not PPFA members) doing that to save time.
It's not right, but I can see it happening.

I've seen that frequently on things brought in for reframing.
Rick