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What is happening with PPFA?

Jini Lumsden MCPF

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HoFP Gallery
has the time has come? .... just go to PMA and look for PPFA

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I have read the thread "well well well...." and my heart is hurting for PPFA members everywhere.

I do not fully understand what PPFA is waiting for? Please spell it out without sugar coating.

David Lantrip actually said what I have often wondered ... If our PPFA President has issues getting answers... where are we headed?

What recognition or support does PMA provide for PPFA members? I would like to continue to tell framers about joining PPFA, but after reading how PMA handled our International Australian and New Zealand PPFA members I am embarrassed and horrified to be a member of such a non supportive and unresponsive International Association.

Is my PPFA Certification going to be worthless?
Has my time spent talking with framers about PPFA been wasted breath?
I am not even sure if I should post this thread... but here goes...
 
Please, Please, Please understand there are steps being taken to assure the future of PPFA. I know we all would love to have things magically be fixed but that is not going to happen. ALL PPFA PROGRAMS ARE VALID AND WILL BE VALID. I have full confidence in the survival of PPFA. Please give a bit more time for all the details to be ironed out.

I know that does not tell you what, who, when, where and why but Please believe the Board when we say we are working to ensure the ability of PPFA to Thrive in the very near future. Support your local chapter. Network with your local members and those on Framers Corner. Support Chapter Events. Get anyone interested involved locally and the National and International direction will be worked out in the very near future.

I have full Confidence we will have answers shortly.
 
What recognition or support does PMA provide for PPFA members? I would like to continue to tell framers about joining PPFA, but after reading how PMA handled our International Australian and New Zealand PPFA members I am embarrassed and horrified to be a member of such a non supportive and unresponsive International Association.

You've only heard part of the story about our chapter, Jini. PMA has only ever viewed our chapter as a cash cow for themselves! Our chapter is not independent like some US chapters so we can't do anything locally while PPFA is in this limbo!

Unless something changes radically, I fear for the future of our chapter! If they keep taking 100% of our subscription and giving nothing back, the future is bleak!

I hope the board has some success in its efforts and I await the outcome!
 
You've only heard part of the story about our chapter, Jini. PMA has only ever viewed our chapter as a cash cow for themselves! Our chapter is not independent like some US chapters so we can't do anything locally while PPFA is in this limbo!

Unless something changes radically, I fear for the future of our chapter! If they keep taking 100% of our subscription and giving nothing back, the future is bleak!

I hope the board has some success in its efforts and I await the outcome!

Maybe it's time for each chapter to start taking the membership money and depositing it in an escrow account until PMA gets this worked out. I know that the board keeps saying to be patient, but how long are the members supposed to sit around waiting until PMA gets their act together. I have advertised with PMA for years and when they called to get my renewal this year I told them that my company would not be advertising until they figure out what they are doing. PPFA should not have to be left in the dark. If you think about it, they have as much of an obligation to our members as we do to them. It seems to me that they are not fulfilling their obligation anymore. The fact that they haven't funded PPFA for months now is also pretty darned disappointing. Some of you may not like that I am saying this, but it's about time someone did. It's been awhile since I read the bylaws, but if PMA isn't doing their job for us, can't we vote to remove PPFA from them and go off on our own? From the amount of support they have been giving us for almost a year now, why do we need them? Sorry if I'm stepping on toes here, but there are so many who have worked so hard for this organization and no one deserves the kind of treatment PMA has given PPFA. They can say all they want that it takes time, but the time is up. We can't wait until there are no more members, which seems to be the direction they are taking us
 
Pat and Ormond and others,

If all goes down as hopefully planned, we will all be much happier with the situation.

If it doesn't go down as favorably as it is looking at this moment, my guess is that the majority of folks will abandon PPFA for good...this framer and business owner included.

Hang in there!

John
 
I am aware a few have mentioned the by laws and why do we not pursue legal action. The fact of the matter is PPFA has no legal recourse. When PPFA Affiliated with PMA the president of PPFA at the time signed the organization over to PMA. The by-laws have been researched and we have no legal standing.

As for the chapters taking the money that would not work either. When someone joins they are expecting certain benefits and the chapters are not in the position to provide them. Yes I know you are going to say PMA is not providing much at this time but we do have some of the larger programs which members do have access to and several are currently using. Without PMA negotiating these benefits they would not be available for members consideration.

As I said earlier there are things being considered which need a bit more research and there will be information available soon.
 
The by-laws have been researched and we have no legal standing.

The PMA was obligated to provide financials to all PPFA members on a yearly bases. This is not an ownership question, rather a failure to fulfill a contract obligation. Us members could legally pursue this if we choose to do so. A possibility of legal action will not and should not be discussed at this forum. We are all well connected on Facebook and several other forums.

We do have rights and PMA was obligated to follow their own bylaws. As Ormond stated, we were the cash cow. This is not how it works, member have rights and it is all spelled out in the bylaws. I would encourage our board to communicate to the PMA a possibility of a legal action by a large number of PPFA members.

By law is a rule or law.

PS. I have no problem waiting for the boards next announcement. Please keep in mind that violation of members rights and the PPFA boards negotiations are two topics.
 
Mira,

Of course someone could sue. It's America.

But, when I investigated the legal angle, the lawyer I spoke with said, the most likely best outcome would be; 1) they get fined [the government gets money] 2) they would be told not to do it again [they still get to siphon cash from us]

My conclusion was that our best course of action would be to get out from under PMA. We have to do this. If the current pursuits break down, we will start a new trade organization. Meanwhile, everybody sit tight for a bit, it's being worked on. But, don't give them any money.
 
Mira,

Of course someone could sue. It's America.

But, when I investigated the legal angle, the lawyer I spoke with said, the most likely best outcome would be; 1) they get fined [the government gets money] 2) they would be told not to do it again [they still get to siphon cash from us]

My conclusion was that our best course of action would be to get out from under PMA. We have to do this. If the current pursuits break down, we will start a new trade organization. Meanwhile, everybody sit tight for a bit, it's being worked on. But, don't give them any money.
Not giving them any money will effectively put PPFA out of business. No money, no members, no more PPFA? Like I said, it's time for PMA to give us some answers.
 
Not giving them any money will effectively put PPFA out of business. No money, no members, no more PPFA? Like I said, it's time for PMA to give us some answers.

Pat, What answers do you want?

  • PMA has almost no money.
  • They are desperately trying to find a way to survive.
  • PPFA is an anomoly in their mix of sub-groups and has to be dealt with differently, therefore isn't cost effective to manage in their desperation.
  • They made it clear they would not be distributing any more money to chapters.
  • They don't really have a great financial record for PPFA independently (although we've pieced together a fair understanding) and it is mostly irrelevant at this point.
  • We, PPFA, can not emotionally or financially continue under PMA.
  • The fiscal year goes until September 30, so PPFA exists "as is" at least until then.
  • There are things in the works that will hopefully liberate PPFA and if they don't work, we start a new organization. It's doable and we'll make it happen if we have to.

What else do you need to know?

Specific details are not public and for most of us are just guessing, but I am confident, as Robin expressed, that the general membership will be informed as soon as it's feasible.
 
Pat, What answers do you want?

  • PMA has almost no money.
  • They are desperately trying to find a way to survive.
  • PPFA is an anomoly in their mix of sub-groups and has to be dealt with differently, therefore isn't cost effective to manage in their desperation.
  • They made it clear they would not be distributing any more money to chapters.
  • They don't really have a great financial record for PPFA independently (although we've pieced together a fair understanding) and it is mostly irrelevant at this point.
  • We, PPFA, can not emotionally or financially continue under PMA.
  • The fiscal year goes until September 30, so PPFA exists "as is" at least until then.
  • There are things in the works that will hopefully liberate PPFA and if they don't work, we start a new organization. It's doable and we'll make it happen if we have to.

What else do you need to know?

Specific details are not public and for most of us are just guessing, but I am confident, as Robin expressed, that the general membership will be informed as soon as it's feasible.

A clarification of where we stand and what the future holds for us is what I was looking for and you summed it up about as well as we can expect. The one question that I have is: has all the money that has been sent in for new members and returning members been going to PMA without any chapter benefit? Meaning the $25 per member reimbursement that each chapter is supposed to get per quarter for new and returning businesses?
 
Mira,

Of course someone could sue. It's America.

But, when I investigated the legal angle, the lawyer I spoke with said, the most likely best outcome would be; 1) they get fined [the government gets money] 2) they would be told not to do it again [they still get to siphon cash from us]

My conclusion was that our best course of action would be to get out from under PMA. We have to do this. If the current pursuits break down, we will start a new trade organization. Meanwhile, everybody sit tight for a bit, it's being worked on. But, don't give them any money.

Cliff,

I do agree with you. We will do whatever is in our best interest. A legal option is a good bargaining chip and all options should be present until our board concludes the negotiations.
 
Chapters received rebates for 1st quarter fiscal year 2015 (Oct-Dec 2015) I am not sure if any others were sent after that as PMA was converting the membership list to a new system and we have not had an accurate membership list since this began. I have been told this is almost completed.


Please give us the opportunity to get the information we need and it will be shared as soon as we are able.

Until then there is not anything new to share.
 
A clarification of where we stand and what the future holds for us is what I was looking for and you summed it up about as well as we can expect. The one question that I have is: has all the money that has been sent in for new members and returning members been going to PMA without any chapter benefit? Meaning the $25 per member reimbursement that each chapter is supposed to get per quarter for new and returning businesses?

To the best of my knowledge, no money has been distributed since early February.

Of course, there have been very few new members since then.

There was some money that "belonged" to chapters that was returned to PMA with the intent that it be distribute to new chapters as part of the "chapter reorganization." That money never made it back out of PMA.

They have no funds and they aren't "giving up" any they get.

This is why I have strongly advised that no one renew and that any new memebrs hold off joining for hte time being.

(Apparently Robin and I were typing at the same time.)
 
My conclusion was that our best course of action would be to get out from under PMA. We have to do this. If the current pursuits break down, we will start a new trade organization.

This is the closest to a statement as to what's being done that I've seen.

There have been several very thickly veiled comments that implied it, but if this is indeed happening, why can't the members simply be told "The PPFA is trying to separate from the PMA"? If that's the case, and it is in the middle of negotiation, great! But please tell us rather than keep us in the dark. We are continuously being told that the PPFA is not a "good old boys" club; here's an opportunity to prove it.

Very simply - we just want to know what's happening to our future.
 
This is the closest to a statement as to what's being done that I've seen.

There have been several very thickly veiled comments that implied it, but if this is indeed happening, why can't the members simply be told "The PPFA is trying to separate from the PMA"? If that's the case, and it is in the middle of negotiation, great! But please tell us rather than keep us in the dark. We are continuously being told that the PPFA is not a "good old boys" club; here's an opportunity to prove it.

Very simply - we just want to know what's happening to our future.

Thank you David. My thoughts exactly. Cliff did a good job of informing us of where we stand, now it's time to figure out what the next move should be.
 
Thanks Cliff for some plain language.

I'm on the outside looking in. One thing that comes to mind is that we're having a very anti-PMA discussion using a PMA owned forum.

It would be better to take this rebellion to a different venue. Facebook comes to mind. The Grumble does not come to mind. Other options exists.

The boards reserved comments are irritating but I assume there's a reason.

Lawyers love & hate social media discussions like this because it can be used against your side.

Doug
 
We are continuously being told that the PPFA is not a "good old boys" club; here's an opportunity to prove it.

Very simply - we just want to know what's happening to our future.

Very simply we are waiting to find out just as you are, PMA controls the strings, there are legal issues at work that prevent anyone from saying anything. Until it's resolved and it will be, as Cliff suggests, hopefully sooner rather than later.
 
Well, I have not seen any comments disappear. I could be wrong, won't be the last time I get something wrong. (I was wrong)

I feel better having read some of the plain talk responses in this thread. I have complete faith in those dedicated framers who are passionate for PPFA.

Never meant to throw a wrench into current negotiations, I even stated ...not sure about posting this thread, but someone was going to post it sooner than later.

Seriously, offering the CFP exam or setting up a ReCertification at this time is impossible and that alone has been so very frustrating for 2015.

Still don't know what to tell members or Chapter leaders that ask how to find or plan a PPFA Certification scheduled event and how/where members can go to register or gain more information. Seems at this time that if the funds to register and sit for a CPF Exam are sent to PMA that means those funds are lost for PPFA.

Personally, I have no issues with the efforts of our current PPFA Board except that "please hang on" was not helping to answer "When is the next CPF Exam being offered? How do I register to join PPFA?" Those basic questions alone put any Chapter Leader at a serious disadvantage and generally looks bad to all prospective PPFA members. "Unable to give you a firm response right now, please wait until June 5th ... no... now wait till .... oh jeeze! I am just ignorant right now!"

Have Chapters been asked to wait until the fiscal year ends on September 30 to plan any PPFA Certification activities?
 
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I have had many people interested in joining the PPFA and or taking the CPF exam, and many who tried to join in Vegas this year were never processed by Coulter, so you imagine my frustration. When I am approached, at this date I explain that the best time may be at WCAF 2016 or in the next membership year, and hold off on anything until that starts, things should be sorted out by then.
 
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