How Times Have Changed - Good Old Boys Club? NONSENSE!

[Mikki Kavich MCPF]

Well said Lauren! Love ya more all the time!
You get what you put in..if you want to help there are so many ways you can get involved and you have proved that.

Thanks for being another reason I love PPFA...the great people you get to know!

 

[Paul Cascio]

I decided not to waste much of my time posting here, but WOW, you people are unbelievable. Same old PPFA, nothing has changed. Heads buried in the sand. The people who come on here and criticize PPFA should be thanked instead of attacked. This is the most delusional, dysfunctional trade association this industry could have. Most of you sit in a circle patting each other on the back and passing out ribbons, while PPFA burns to the ground.

Kotnour and others are right - keep living in your dream world. You think by posting a few anecdotal stories justifies the epic failure that this organization has been, but it doesn't. PPFA, if it is to survive needs a total revamp. The industry doesn't buy what you are selling, has no confidence in you, and resents that you failed to come to its aid at its times of need.

How long before PMA concludes that it's time to cut its losses?

 

[Les Martin. MCPF]

"

I decided not to waste much of my time posting here

Appreciate you not wasting your time or ours by NOT POSTING here. Please be negative some where else, thank you.


Lauren: GREAT POST!!

 

[Lauren Rosenthal]

Paul, if you think you can teach someone how to be a picture framer in 4 days then I can see why you might not find value in the life-long learning that PPFA inspires. We can agree to disagree. I'm sticking with the PPFA.

 

[Jim Miller MCPF GCF]

...I have NEVER felt excluded or belittled by a single member of this organization. In fact, I have had the complete opposite experience. A chapter leader helped me...Many, many PPFA members have been there to answer questions for me...I feel unwaveringly supported, cared for, and a part of this smart, engaged, thoughtful community.

Does that make you the youngest member of the Good Old Boys Network?
:grouphug: eace:

As an organization I don't think that we should waste one more minute fighting with each other or worrying about what some negative-minded folks might be saying or thinking about the PPFA. We don't need to defend ourselves. We just need to keep moving forward and reaching new members who care about being the best framers they can be, supported by an organization who wants to lift them up.

Hear! Hear! The positive message resounds.

 

[Jim Miller MCPF GCF]

... Same old PPFA... Heads buried in the sand... This is the most delusional, dysfunctional trade association this industry could have... epic failure...The industry doesn't buy what you are selling, has no confidence in you, and resents that you failed to come to its aid at its times of need.

Gosh, Mr Cascio. Is that your idea of winning friends and influencing people? Your purpose is unclear, but we know you're not here to help.

PPFA, if it is to survive needs a total revamp.

"...needs a total revamp" isn't exactly insightful advice.

 

[Mike Drury MCPF]

The thing I am most frustrated with is PPFA not dropping the likes of Paul C. from membership. Here goes, I don't want people like Paul in an organization I am a member of. Never met him in person, but I have a pretty good idea what he and his little framing classes are all about. Sorry,(not really) but a little "red" just came out in me. I am just sick of how gracious people have responded and still get trashed by the resident bully. Mike

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

... while PPFA burns to the ground.

-sigh- hardly. We have a strong core built in spite of being nearly hidden away in an industry trade show that was unrelated and nearly invisible to most of the framing industry.

Kotnour and others are right - keep living in your dream world. You think by posting a few anecdotal stories justifies the epic failure that this organization has been, but it doesn't. PPFA, if it is to survive needs a total revamp. The industry doesn't buy what you are selling, has no confidence in you, and resents that you failed to come to its aid at its times of need.

I think your position had merit 20 years ago and PPFA and the independent framers messed up. I think there is still some work and ways to retake lost ground, but I think you actually only represent a small and dwindling portion of the framing community. You have stated that you have no data, only your own perceptions, and I think they are inflated and out of touch.

How long before PMA concludes that it's time to cut its losses?

Ha, I think PPFA is a cash contributor, not a loss.

 

[Mike Labbe]

We (the volunteers that manage this forum) are hearing everyone's complaints/requests to take action, loud and clear. We have received a boat load of moderator alerts and angry emails regarding the same people, whose posts are for the most part very abrasive and counterproductive. You think they have motives that are not being disclosed, etc. They're asked to help, but have no interest in anything BUT throwing stones and stirring the pot. We have given it ample time to play out, without any type of moderation or removal of participants. We have never HAD to take any type of action in the history of this forum, because people have always been professional and courteous. We shouldn't be forced to do so, but this is beyond crazy and enough is enough. (can you hear the frustration?)

As a reminder, here are "the rules" that everyone agreed to when they joined. Notice the sections in bold.

User Agreement

Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Complete Registration' button below.

Although the administrators and moderators of PPFA Framers' Corner will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this site, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of PPFA Framers' Corner, nor vBulletin Solutions, Inc. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

Some "common sense" usage guidelines:

- Treat others as you’d like to be treated in person or correspondence. Please be respectful of your fellow framers.
- Try to have patience with newbies learning the system.
- Please do not post wholesale prices or markup multiplier discussions in the "FORUMS FOR ALL" (public) sections.
- Try to be grammatically correct (spell check your messages!).
- No vulgarity, obscenities, name calling, and public lashings.
- Try to avoid posting rumors or “something I heard”
- No messages are allowed to be in conflict with rules and guidelines of PPFA or PMA association membership.
- Uploaded images must be appropriate to the topic
- Commercial posts and for sale ads are welcomed only in the CORNER CLASSIFIEDS section

The owners of PPFA Framers' Corner reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason. PPFA membership does not necessarily guarantee access to this resource.

IMO, this kind of extreme negativity/cancer is a great example of what can hurt an organization, and the will of the generous volunteers to do all the heavy lifting. It's fine to have a personal opinion, but you have to consider that your opinion isn't the only one out there. (or the only one that matters) This is a trade organization of professionals, not a school yard or place to bully others.

However, if that PASSION could be focused on something positive, we would have something VERY special - and could move forward to a common goal.

Can we please try harder, and keep it professional? (I'm talking to a fraction of 1%, not to everyone, and you know who you are)

Thanks in advance for playing nice and being respectful of your peers.

Sincerely,
Mike Labbe, PPFA Framer's Corner committee chair/moderator team

 

[Ormond Williams MCPF]

Posting nothing but negativity and refusal to offer any positivity is indeed a cancer and no one needs that, let alone an organisation that has provided an enormous amount of help and positivity to it's members.

PPFA is certainly not perfect and no-one ever said it was, but I foresee many new positive steps forward with a new direction and under the management of Coulter.

Give it a chance, people! It will not happen overnight, but it will happen!

Let the positivity continue and the negativity be consigned to the past!


PS. The same should apply to life in general, too!

 

[Pat Kotnour]

I feel that I need to speak as a new, young, female (if that must be included) business owner who had absolutely NO preconceived notions about the PPFA before I joined. I am honestly shocked and disappointed to hear all of the negative stereotypes that some people seem to have about this professional organization. For the record, here is an overview of my experience:

I was trained as a framer by someone who has been in the industry for many years, someone who is not a PPFA member and does not always follow the highest preservation standards. When I decided to open my own business, I wanted to learn more about best practices and thought that working toward being a CPF would help to make me a better, more confident, more trustworthy framer. I started the journey by attending a PPFA meeting, hoping to network, learn something, and see what opportunities might come from it. In the process, I got to know some really generous, hardworking, and knowledgeable picture framers and industry professionals who have been extremely supportive of me and my business.

Within a few months of opening my doors, I was asked to fill in for someone who was leaving the local PPFA board before the end of the term, and I am now secretary of my chapter. After last year's WCAF I was also asked to serve on the PPFA consumer awareness committee. I have NEVER felt excluded or belittled by a single member of this organization. In fact, I have had the complete opposite experience. A chapter leader helped me to apply for a scholarship (which I won!) to take the CPF (which I passed!) and volunteered her time to serve as my proctor during the exam. Many, many PPFA members have been there to answer questions for me (and I've had lots of them as a new business owner). I feel unwaveringly supported, cared for, and a part of this smart, engaged, thoughtful community.

As an organization I don't think that we should waste one more minute fighting with each other or worrying about what some negative-minded folks might be saying or thinking about the PPFA. We don't need to defend ourselves. We just need to keep moving forward and reaching new members who care about being the best framers they can be, supported by an organization who wants to lift them up.

Lauren, I was very impressed with your post and the positive nature in which you described your experience. It is the kind of feed back that PPFA needs. I came in to our new chapter with a different perspective because it was from the ground level during the formation of the NC chapter. We were brand new and had to work out a lot of kinks. One of the most difficult things that I found during my presidency was the fact that almost every member was the boss of their world, and everyone was accustom to being in charge. With so many wanting to be the captain it was often times next to impossible to steer the ship. Everyone was use to doing things their way and it was difficult to keep the troops all going in the same direction. Also, because we were all running businesses and from different parts of the state, conducting meetings by conference calls, or in person was challenging to say the least. I found that it was often easier and less time consuming to do what needed to be done when I had the time to work on it then it was to call on members to ask them to do it for me. It also taught me that it matters not how the job gets done, as long as it gets done and is for the greater good of the whole. We had a great group of people who did the chapter proud. Did we have clashes and disputes? Sure we did, but in the end we could look back and be proud of what we were able to accomplish.

It is very likely that PPFA's officers and board have experienced many of the same issues and for the same reasons. Understanding the makeup of our membership and reasons why so many see things so differently IMO is the key to a better understanding of how to work together in harmony. We are all working for the same reason....to build a strong & healthy organization. We just have different ideas of how to get there. And because we are accustom to doing what needs to be done ourselves we have tendency's toward inpatients. Robin and all the chapter presidents have to put on a suit of armor because not everyone is going to like what they do, but it goes with the job. Ultimately they are the heads of all committees and chapter events and will be the held responsible for the chapters success or failure during their tenure. It is easy to forget that we are all volunteers who donate our time and talents, most often with little or no reward. So anytime someone takes shots at an individual or that person's business, or points fingers, no matter how right they think they are they are also adding to the image of dysfunction. And that goes for the moderators as well. I don't even know how long I have been in PPFA, but it's long enough to know that if we don't stop trying to prove to the world that we are not worth the time and the money and start showing them by example that we are, it won't matter what we do because come fall when it's time to renue no amount of PR will undo the damage we have done to ourselves.

My husband who was an English major says that the written word is the worst form of communication because it leaves so much to the interpretation of the reader. I have seen that often right here when I have posted something that was meant to be insightful but was taken so differntly than the way than it was intended. Why don't we all start over and try to find constructive ways to lift us up. Trying to see things from another's point of view might be the first step to moving in the same direction for the greater good of the whole organization.

 

[Ylva Callewaert]

Paul, I don't mind reading your very different point of view, but it seems a bit vague. I know you are not the only one who has strong negative feelings about the PPFA.

I just don't see anything to work with. What do you propose to do? Or if you don't want to do anything, who should do what exactly? You have kept hammering about it needing to become a marketing organization. Why don't you start to research that, how it should be set up, what can be done within a limited budget?

Most non members don't see the value at all. We have to convince those members that there is.


Is there a count somewhere about the local events, who is a PPFA member and who is not. Is someone keeping track on why those non members, who do come to events, are non members?

I like the idea of charging a higher amount for classes for non members. That is a direct benefit one can see. We'd still have to convince the naysayers that there is value in the classes.

Can't win them all.

 

[Paul Cascio]

I think anything has to begin with a survey of non-members, and separately, former members. However, my plan would be for PPFA to declare that it is an organization that represents exclusively, the interests of the independent businesses, and individual framers, of this industry. Everything else, in terms of marketing and advocacy springs from that. If PPFA wants the other 90% to become members, it needs to prove to them that PPFA is in their corner. And only their corner. IMO, this BS about serving the entire industry is delusional, and a roadblock to growth.

 

[Jim Miller MCPF GCF]

I think anything has to begin with a survey of non-members, and separately, former members.

Yes, knowing what framers want and expect is very important, and surveys may be very helpful in that regard. A few questions:
1. How would the former members and never-members be identified, located and contacted? Perhaps an ad in PFM would be a good start?
2. What data would the surveys be expected to provide? Do you have a list of specific questions or survey topics?
3. How would the surveys, which may cost tens of thousands of dollars, be funded? Where would that money come from?

However, my plan would be for PPFA to declare that it is an organization that represents exclusively, the interests of the independent businesses, and individual framers, of this industry. Everything else, in terms of marketing and advocacy springs from that. If PPFA wants the other 90% to become members, it needs to prove to them that PPFA is in their corner. And only their corner.

Can you name one PPFA benefit that might appeal to a craft store?

Since PPFA has never appealed to framing businesses other than small independent retailers and a few of the suppliers who serve them, why should it be necessary to declare the existing facts? Are you suggesting that membership includes other segments of the industry? If so, who are they and why are they not listed in the PPFA Directory?

To my knowledge, the wealthiest businesses in the retail framing industry are the craft stores. Each of them follows a carefully designed business formula, including their own in-house training and well-financed marketing/advertising programs; these companies do not need or want PPFA's influence in any way. PPFA is and always has been designed to help small independent framers, and the craft stores you want to exclude have no interest in PPFA. But if one of them decided to join PPFA (which is highly unlikely), their dues would certainly exceed the dues of a few dozen small independent frame shops, and would add significantly to PPFA's revenue. That income would be spent on benefits the craft stores do not need or want, but would help small independent framers. If a craft store were dumb enough to fund PPFA's benefits for small independent framers, why preclude that possibility by excluding them?

IMO, this BS about serving the entire industry is delusional, and a roadblock to growth.

PPFA really does serve the entire industry, since many non-members take advantage of PPFA classes and publications, and all framers have access to those PPFA resources. Since PPFA began several decades ago, framing in the USA has evolved more positively than at any time in the industry's history. Today, American framing stands as the best in the world in terms of quality and value, and that is largely attributable to PPFA's contributions to the wealth of educational books and classes for American framers. While it is true that PFM now dominates framing education in classrooms, PPFA started it, and continues as the best source of instructional publications. JFK said it best: "A rising tide lifts all boats". PPFA began the rising tide about 40 years ago, and it is still rising.

Perhaps PPFA's proven benefit to the entire industry actually has been a roadblock to growth of the association, since membership is not necessary in order to access some of the benefits. If you are implying that PPFA should served only its members, how would you propose to prohibit non-members from attending PPFA classes or reading PPFA instructional publications?

 

[Paul Cascio]

Jim, that's an outline of what I think PPFA should do. If you have a different idea about what needs to be done, please share it, or at least an outline of it. I'm just offering ideas.

 

[Doug Vieau]

I'm sympathetic with Paul C's cause which is to beat the BB's at their game.

It's a fine mission but not the mission of a Trade organization.

Paul's vision is an organization more like a Cartel or Buying group.

Trade association - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cartel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Challenge of Being an Independent Business – Buying Group Services

I believe one of PPFA's failures is that large retailers and wholesalers see no reason to join. For the good of the industry we should be recruiting them not shutting them out.


Doug

 

[Paul Cascio]

Doug, that's not an unfair characterization. I believe it would be good for the industry, and it would be good for PPFA. Whether PPFA wants to steer in that direction, I don't know.

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

This probably should be another thread, but here is an excerpt from something I was working on separately.
This is MY suggestion ONLY, no one else.

PPFA Target Audience: Independent Retailers that sell Picture Framing and the Vendors that supply them.

Who isn't PPFA's Target Audience:
BigBox Retailers. (not necessarily their employees) They have stolen (literally not figuratively) a large percentage of the customer base with lies and deception. We should exclude them on ethics alone.
Big online retailers like Art.com and the diploma companies (a couple of which use the PPFA logo, but are not members). Again, they put out inferior products with deceptive information and bad advice.
...
The PPFA value proposition is: Hi,I'm with PPFA and I'm here to help you grow your business.

Much of what we do is aimed at elevating the expertise of the retailer. This is good, but the ultimate goal and what we need to stress is all of what we do helps them grow their business. We have been obtuse about this. We talk about standards, and training and … When we talk about things like standards people hear “tell them what they have to do.” We need to build into our thinking on EVERY communication how <everything we do> “helps you grow your business.”


Again, just some of my opinion.

 

[Gregory K. Norris CPF]

Cliff you are right. When I was raising money for a PBS station, PBS kept hitting us with the old sales axiom:

Sell benefits, not features! We have always focused on our features, rather than explaining our benefits. Don't know why, because we are all sales people at heart and we sell benefits all day to our customers.

If I were to win a lottery or otherwise fall into a barrel full of money, I would fund a study to test my hypothesis that PPFA members are largely happier and more successful framers than those who aren't because all of those features create real benefits.

PPFA has certainly helped me grow my business.

 

[David Lantrip MCPF GCF]

PPFA Target Audience: Independent Retailers that sell Picture Framing and the Vendors that supply them.

Would you mind clarifying a bit by defining "independent retailers"? Would that include or exclude those working within a franchise? How about the franchisor?